The topic of whether signs and wonders ceased has reared it's ugly head again and after much avoidance, I decided to do my own study. I stated publicly before that I never studied this, and that I was leaning towards 'no' they are not for today but I wanted to be sure. My reason was largely due to the countless false TV evangelists with their false miracles, manifestations, and scandals. Another reason is that I have never witnessed any miracles, not in the way some TV evangelists claim.
So, being aware of my bias against signs and wonders, I knew I had to pray that the Lord would remove that bias, forget everything I've been taught or read, to not read into the text, and give me fresh eyes in which to read.
Just so I'm clear, I do not claim to have a lock on the truth. I'm simply stating my findings and in the end, what I believe. I encourage you all to do your own study, ask that the Holy Spirit to teach you, and not to listen to me or anyone else.
Who are the gifts for?
An objection was raised that the gifts were only for the 11 (Apostles) because Jesus is speaking to them only in Mark 16:15-18.
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
Of course He was speaking to the Apostles because the world had not yet learned of the Gospel. They were the agents in which Jesus appointed to do this task of spreading the Gospel. He can't very well tell the world to spread the Gospel to the world. That defies logic. So He had to start with a small group that He appointed to spread the Gospel unto the world.
Were these gifts for the 11 in the verses above?
vs 17 “And these signs will accompany those who believe.”...
This means the people that hear the Gospel and believe will have these gifts. While the 11 have these gifts already, these verses are not speaking of them but of the potential believers.
The word “they”
It was said that the word “they” denotes the 11:
vs 17 “In my name they will drive out demons, they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands, and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people....”
So if Jesus was addressing the 11 about themselves, then why did He refer to them as “they?”
Yes He was speaking to them directly but He was talking about the people who would believe once they left. If He was speaking to them about themselves, then He would have said:
'In my name YOU will drive out demons.'
or
'YOU will speak in new tongues.'
or
'YOU will pick up snakes with YOUR hands.'
It is plain to see that Jesus was referring to other people regarding the gifts above, not the 11. He was just speaking to the 11. The signs and wonders of the potential believers would be the result of the apostle's spreading the Gospel.
The word “them”
Mark 16:20 was raised to further prove that the gifts were only for the disciples because of the word “them.”
Mark 16:20 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.”
This does not present a problem at all. It is simply an affirmation that the Lord did as He has promised in giving the disciples those gifts. The subject is the disciples, not the people who will believe. So naturally the gifts are described of the disciples because they are the subject!
Touching briefly on two of those gifts of Mark 16:15-18:
- Drive out demons.
- Speak in new tongues
- Pick up snakes with their hands
- When they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them.
- Place their hands on sick people and they will get well
No occurrence of drinking deadly poison is found in the NT so this prompted me to dig a little. I think that #3 & #4 go together and I'll explain...
vs 18 '...they shall take up serpents'... Ophis (Strong's 3789) (KJV)
- snake, serpent
- with the ancients, the serpent was an emblem of cunning and wisdom. The serpent who deceived Eve was regarded by the Jews as the devil.
Greek Lexicon says about “serpent”
a snake, figuratively (as a type of sly cunning)
an artful malicious person, especially Satan – serpent.
So is this a real snake or is it figurative?
The NIV says: “they will pick up snakes with their hands.”
“with their hands” indicates that this is a real snake in the NIV.
The KJV says: “take up serpents” - no mention of hands so this could be figurative.
Now let's continue with Mark 16: 18 -”... and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;..”
“Drink” (4095) Pino
- To drink
- figuratively, to receive into the soul what serves to refresh strengthen, nourish unto life eternal.
It's not very clear as to whether this is a real serpent or a figurative one so far.
Luke 10:18,19 I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
Does it make sense that he will trample on a literal snake and then change His thought mid-sentence to overcoming the power of the enemy? They are disjointed. Also, does it makes sense that drinking a poison is literal when it never happened in the NT? So what if we took the figurative meaning for both...
Rather than picking up serpents with your hands, I think Luke 10:19 expresses the true meaning in that he will overcome all the power of the enemy (trample on snakes & scorpions). He will be able to withstand his cunning, his wisdom, and his maliciousness. And while these things are deadly to the soul, even if he 'drinks' of these cunning, malicious things, he will not be harmed. I think vs 19 ties these two things together perfectly.
Having said all of that, there is a literal occurrence regarding the snake:
Acts 28:3-5 KJV
“And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. 4And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffers not to live. 5And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
So the same elements of #3 and #4 (snake and poison) are found here but in it's literal sense. But I don't think that Jesus meant the literal interpretation of handling snakes to be a gift or a sign or wonder. For one thing it doesn't point to Christ. In fact it did the opposite because in Acts 28:6, the barbarians thought that because Paul didn't die that “he was a god.” So, I believe the meanings of the verses in Mark 16:15-18 – specifically the taking up of snakes and drinking of poison are both figurative. And those snake-handler enthusiasts at some churches take the literal meaning and support it with the verse from Acts event though that account denies God.
Did only the Apostles perform miracles?
Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
Jesus says in verse 9 'heal the sick' who are there and tell them, 'the kingdom of God is near you.' (so they have the power to heal)
Luke 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
Mark 9:38 “Teacher', said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” 39”Do not stop him...”
Exodus 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart...
Acts 6:8 Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.
Prior to this, in verse 1, it says “the number of disciples was increasing.” This tells me that these powers go beyond the 11 and that anyone who is filled with the Spirit is a disciple, and we are increasing in number even today. The Bible is clear, there were others who performed signs and wonders.
The reason why I think people believe the miracles stopped and were limited to the Apostles is because they believe these gifts are only for them and since the Apostles are now physically dead, so are the gifts. But as you can see from reading the above verses, that this is not so.
Another objection:
Some say gifts ceased after the “apostolic age”, or just because we don't need them now and they cite 1 Corin. 13:8-11 as proof.
1 Corin 13:8-11 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophecy in part 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
The above doesn't state or even imply that they will end during or after the apostle's ministry. However, it does imply when these things will end and that is after Jesus comes and we are made perfect in glorified bodies. (vs. 10 but when perfection comes)
Speaking in tongues is for God, not man. (1 Corin 14:2) So when Jesus comes and rules the earth and we have direct access to God, then tongues will not be necessary.
Prophecying is for men (1 Corin 14:3) but again, this won't be necessary in God's kingdom.
And another reason why I think the time is at the end is...
1 Corin 15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
So if perfection comes and Jesus is perfection, and we are made perfect at His coming, and gifts cease along with imperfection, then it's pretty clear that the gifts will cease when Christ comes
Do all believers have all of these gifts?
A certain person challenged another to provide proof of these gifts in himself. (casting out demons, healing, tongues etc.) Just because a person does not possess the exact gifts in question does not nullify the gifts all together. In fact I think this is blasphemy to scoff at the gifts the Holy Spirit chose to distribute according to His will.
Heb 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to His will.
1 Corin 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Romans 12:6-8 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
1 Corin 12:4-30 (paraphrased) Wisdom, knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues.
Speaking of the verses in Mark 16:15-18 and the gifts mentioned above – we should not draw a separation between the Apostles and everyone else. But rather between 'believer' and 'non believer.' (by their fruits)
Examples of false signs:
Deut 13:1-3 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer.
The Egyptian magicians in Exodus 7:11-22
Matt 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? 23Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”
So they can even proclaim Christ and not lead you to other gods yet still be false by not doing His will and practicing lawlessness. So we must look at their fruits (Matt 7:20) and go beyond the words in their mouths. Think of all the many TV evangelists who proclaim Jesus, maybe even help the poor, perhaps even perform a miracle or two (whether they're genuine or not has no bearing on this point) then look at the scandal in their lives – their fruit. Are they making false promises to you in the name of God? Do they promise you a hefty return for your “love gift?” These are those who practice lawlessness. These are those who Jesus “never” knew.
Why does God allow for these false signs?
Deut 13:3 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
There are those who have listed every verse where Jesus rebukes a false prophet and they use this as evidence that these gifts has ceased. But Jesus doesn't condemn ALL prophets, signs & wonders - just the false ones. The fact that He warns against false signs and wonders implies that there are true signs and wonders.
In closing:
I started this study with a bias towards not believing in signs & wonders based on TV evangelists but I learned differently today. I learned that the gifts were not just for the Apostles, I can now refute snake-handler enthusiasts, I learned that the gifts have not ceased after the “apostolic age”, I now know when the gifts will cease, and I know there's no biblical support for drinking deadly poison if understood correctly. Just because I believe in true signs and wonders does not mean I've let my guard down for TV evangelists - in fact my study confirmed even more that I am right in being watchful of them. I am grateful that the Lord gave me this desire, and the energy to do this study, and for the help of the Holy Spirit. And if I am wrong on anything, then may I be [gently] corrected. I hope this wasn't too hard to follow – I tend to write like I think which can be choppy.
God bless you all and again, I'd like to encourage you all to do your own study and not just take my word for it. I'm prone to err just like any other person. :)
The End
25 comments:
Carol,
That's a good study, and I think it's interesting how you put the perspective on handling snakes and drinking actual poison Biblically.
I believed (keyword) in the ascribing of those special gifts to the Apostles only, but after reading your exposition, I'll go have a read again for myself.
I don't believe that signs and wonders have ceased, though I hail from a cessationist background.
However, I am concerned that many look for an experience instead of a true relationship with Christ Jesus that does not need these signs and wonders to validate.
The thing about experiences is that people always want more -- it's like watching David Copperfield and if he doesn't wow you with his next trick, you lose interest in his shows.
At the end of the day, the most important thing is to test all things against the Word of God taken as the final authority.
In this day and age, we need to be very very and really test everything because even God-less men and women can work such signs and wonders and deceive many.
I agree 100%. It is imperative that we test everything. And I don't think we should be looking for signs, especially since we're already believers. Instead, we should seek the things the Lord tells us to seek which is wisdom, discernment of spirits, His face. I'm sure there's more but we are not to seek experiential things because they can become nothing more than a spectacle or sideshow.
Many people are deceived by false signs such as slain in the spirit, gold dust, and most recently on your site, blue glitter. Everything must be tested and these gifts must operate within the bounds of mentioned Spiritual gifts.
I'm glad you're going to look into this for yourself. It helps to solidify what you believe and why if you do it yourself.
Reading your wife's testimony now.
Blessings,
carol
Carol,
Deut. 12 and 13 is one of my favorite passages. God has used the concepts in these to make me very unpopular among the average "Christians". That's okay, though. HE IS ENOUGH.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Firstly, I want to commend you for the effort you've taken to study this topic.
This is how I explain the Mark 16:14-20 verses.
---------------------
The “them” in Mark 16:17 refers to the “them” in Mark 16:16.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
WHOEVER BELIEVES AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED….It’s about this “whoever” the next verse talks about
-------------------
I want you to consider this...Are signs and the gifts of the Spirit the same? If they were, why would Heb 2:4 mention them separately?
I don't know why you don't see the difference, Isaiah: Jesus did not perform any signs to make people believe. However, He Himself said signs would follow them that believe.
World: See---->Believe
God: Believe---->See
We need to seek Him, love Him and believe in Him....if we do so, signs will follow.
Sid
Sidharth,
You know my question to that. :)
How do we explain people whom I call 'giants of faith' that don't have these signs with them?
Not just folks like Charles Spurgeon and the other puritan reformers, but also in my fellowship with others, there are many who are Godly in both their public and (as much as I know) private lives but they don't have a single sign following them nor have they performed a single miracle.
At one time I doubted if I was truly saved not based on what Christ Jesus has promised -- trusting and believing in Him, but why signs have not accompanied my walk. It was an agonizing time that I don't want to go through again.
I am convinced of my salvation because I see the regeneration of my soul in Him, hearkening to His voice (Jesus said His sheep shall hear His voice), and each day a little blossoming of each fruit of the Spirit grows in me. For me, that's very sufficient.
Shalom!
Hi Carol,
Wow! That was fast!
Help me if you can? You used references(Luke 10:1 Luke 10:17 Mark 9:38 Exodus 11:10) to those performing signs and wonders in the Gospels. Weren't those signs and wonders done prior to the Great Commission?
Acts 6:8 is a reference to Stephen. My understanding is he was an Apostolic Prelate which would be perfectly understandable.
Are there any other references to anyone other then an Apostle or one accompanying them performing signs and wonders?
Phil Naessens
Theology Today
Carol, I think you said it perfectly clearly. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your study on the subject. I will say here, that I do agree with you conclusions, as well. Blessings to you!
Hi Carol,
Stephen wasn’t an original Apostle (Matthew 10:2-4). I can’t trace his steps because Stephen the “apostle” didn’t exist
Please keep in mind that it’s the Mark 16 text we are examining here.
The point I was trying to make was that prior to the death and resurrection of Christ no one was truly saved….INCLUDING THE APOSTLES. How could they believe that Jesus died and was resurrected if He hadn't died yet? Remember also that Judas Iscariot was among them who were sent out and we all know how that turned out in the end.
Have a look at Acts 2:14-41 and please show me in the text where Peter told the people he was preaching to that signs and wonders would follow those who believed and were baptized. He didn't so we must ask ourselves why he didn't. Surely he didn't forget what Jesus instructed them in the upper room. Peter knew that Jesus was telling the 11 that signs and wonders would follow those who believed what the Apostles were teaching and this is how they would recognize a true believer. Let's look at verse 43;
Acts 2:43 (ESV) And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles.
It doesn't say signs and wonders were being done by all those who believed and were baptized; it says "many wonders and signs were being done through the Apostles". Those were the 11 folks. Certainly there are texts which clearly state that signs and wonders followed Stephen Philip and Barnabas and this validates what Jesus said in the Mark text.
Can any of us say that we see "many signs and wonders" from all who believe? No...But those in the early church sure did. Those in the early church didn't have what we have now......written confirmation and historical evidence that Jesus was the Messiah. Those in the beginning needed to see signs and mighty wonders....we don't which is why we don't see what the early church saw.
Phil Naessens
Theology Today
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com
Phil, yes those signs were done before the great commission so that tell us that the Holy Spirit has ALWAYS been active, even in the OT and before. I'm studying the Holy Spirit as it relates to Pentecost now.
As to your other question about Stephen, I do not think it's the same Stephen that was one of the original apostles because he was grouped with the other names who were not original apostles (Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, & Nocolas) But that's just one example, there were a few other instances where other people besides the disciples were performing miracles. Also, the Bible says the disciples were 'ever increasing' so that tells us it was not limited to the 11. All that's left to do now is to trace the steps of Stephen the original apostle but I can't do that now - got stuff to do but you can look this up yourself. :)
Sidhu,
I think signs & wonders and gifts are the same thing because in Mark 16:15-18 'tongues' is mentioned in the category of signs & wonders but it's ALSO mentioned as a spiritual gift.So is healing the sick - mentioned as a sign & wonder AND a spiritual gift later on.
When the Bible tells of an particular event or instruction etc., and it is mentioned somewhere else but some of the details are different (added or subtracted) - we are to first determine whether these are the same events by what they have in common. To see if these events can be harmonized or whether they are mutually exclusive. If we look at different accounts and separate them by their differences,then you will have many different events and will miss the entire scope of the message.
The Bible gives some info in some places, and different or more info in another - this is called 'expansion'. This can be seen in the 4 Gospels. If you don't look for a commonality between the four Gospels to determine if they are the same event but divide according to their differences, the you have 4 crucifixions, 4 burials, and 4 resurrections.
Another example is the creation story in Gen 1 - but in Gen 2 there is more (hence different) information given that basically sums up the creation event. If you don't put these two together to see if they harmonize into one event (and they do) then you will get a much different picture of the creation story which would be steeped in error.
BTW, this is also done with our pre-trib friends who have divided up Jesus's second coming into two events, (one partial coming with the pre-trib rapture, then his "real" coming in bodily form to pick up the rest of the saints) These two events can be harmonized easily into one event as evidenced by their similarities and the "differences" in the event are really not different at all if you study. They just have to be put together to get the whole scope of the event.
So if some gifts are mentioned in one area, but not in another, that does not cancel out the other nor does it create a separation. Just like a sins that are listed. In one place homosexuality is not mentioned, in another it is. But you put them together and you have one complete list of sins. Again, it's called 'expansion' and the Bible is full of them. :)
Phil,
Thank you for your comment. Why don't we do this....I'll answer your question(s) if you'll address mine? You gave a verse which says only the apostles could do these signs & wonders and I have a couple of verses stating that there were others doing these as well. Since there is an apparent contradiction, then don't you agree that this must be studied by both of us? I don't want any loose ends whatsoever so I will examine the verses you gave me. Will you do the same?
Here are the verses where others were doing miracles:
Did only the Apostles perform miracles?
Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
Jesus says in verse 9 'heal the sick' who are there and tell them, 'the kingdom of God is near you.' (so they have the power to heal)
Luke 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
Mark 9:38 “Teacher', said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” 39”Do not stop him...”
Exodus 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart...
Acts 6:8 Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people.
Prior to this, in verse 1, it says “the number of disciples was increasing.” This tells me that these powers go beyond the 11 and that anyone who is filled with the Spirit is a disciple, and we are increasing in number even today. The Bible is clear, there were others who performed signs and wonders.
Phil,
You said: The point I was trying to make was that prior to the death and resurrection of Christ no one was truly saved….INCLUDING THE APOSTLES. How could they believe that Jesus died and was resurrected if He hadn't died yet?
Sure they were saved, the same way the people in the OT were saved and that is by faith.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast… Ephesians 2:8-9
Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." (Romans 4:3)
Righteous deeds did not earn Abraham his salvation. The righteousness that Abraham was given came to him because of his trust in God. It was because Abraham believed God that he was made righteous. Righteousness was credited to him because of his faith.
The word translated "credited" can be translated accounted, reckoned, imputed, or counted. The point that is being made is that when we believe, God transfers His righteousness to our account. Sin is transferred from our account and righteousness is transferred to our account. It is not our righteousness, it is His. And it is made ours by faith.
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Romans 4:4-5)
So we see that salvation is a gift. And faith is the key to receiving this gift. Salvation is not given to us by God because of some obligation on His part. If we received what we deserve, it would not be salvation. None of us wants to get what we deserve - what God owes us. Therefore, we have to ask ourselves a very important question. Do we want a fair trial or a free pardon? God offers both. I want the pardon.
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! (Romans 4:9-10)
Circumcision was the most important religious rite of the Jewish faith. It was the sign of the covenant made with Israel. But Paul makes the important point that this rite of circumcision was not the real issue. He asks us to notice the time when Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. He received this righteousness not after he was circumcised, but before! There was fourteen years between the time Abraham believed and the time when he was circumcised. Faith was the key issue.
Also, the Holy Spirit was there in the OT times the same as the NT times. Psalm 51:11, "Do not cast me away from Thy presence, And do not take Thy Holy Spirit from me."
God did not change how He saved people in the New Testament. It has always been by faith. In the case of the OT people, they looked ahead in time to the Messiah. We look back to Him and see the cross.
As far as your question in Acts, there is no verse 43. Anyway I don't see a problem.
8Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
Just because their gifts weren't mentioned does not mean they didn't receive them. You cannot base a belief on an argument from silence. We know that the Holy Spirit will give gifts according to His will. Again, like what I said about the four different accounts of the crucifixion – there are different details in all four Gospels but that doesn't mean there were four different crucifixions. You have to put all thee things together, not make a separate event every time something is omitted. You'll drive yourself crazy doing that. haha :)
Hi Carol,
I wasn't asking any questions.
There is an Acts 2:43. This as well as the fact you claim that Stephen was an "original apostle" shows me that discussing this with you may be fruitless.
Have a nice day!
Carol:
sorry to disagree, but if the promise in Mk. 16:17-18 with regards to drinking poison and handling snakes are figurative for us now, then why aren't the others (ie tongues, healings, excorcism) also figurative? After all, the promise is stated as one single package. Either we have all of them figuratively, or literally. All or none... And no, we cannot state that other verses mention the other gifts like tongues, healings etc but not the other two, because that would violate the rules of interpreting Scripture, which is to say interpret in context before bringing in the larger context of the entire Scripture. As it has been stated: A text without a context is a pretext for a proof-text.
With regards to the gifts, I can assure you that Cessationists do not believe they have ceased. What they believe is that the Sign-gifts have ceased. Whether they are right or not is of course another matter, but at least we must not think that just because at least some of the Gifts still exist means that the Charismatic position is proved. (Just fyi, I do not call myself a Cessationist, but I am most definitely not a Continualist - wait for my posts in my ongoing series =) )
Carol and Phil:
sorry to disturb your interaction, but please be nice. We are all (hopefully) trying to be true to Scripture.
Stephen is a deacon appointed by the people and approved by the Apostles (cf Acts 6:5). During the days of the early church, not only the Apostles did signs and wonders, as the example of Agabus shows (Acts 21:10-11).
Carol, you said:
"Just because their gifts weren't mentioned does not mean they didn't receive them. You cannot base a belief on an argument from silence."
I agree. But neither can you say that just because their gifts weren't mentioned means that they actually have gifts because of reason so and so. That is also an argument from silence.
Phil,
You did ask questions:
You said: Acts 6:8 is a reference to Stephen. My understanding is he was an Apostolic Prelate which would be perfectly understandable.
Are there any other references to anyone other then an Apostle or one accompanying them performing signs and wonders?
That sounds like a question to me.
I wasn't sure if Stephen was an original apostle, like you claim, so I had my doubts - that's why I said I would have to check this out (trace his steps) and I suggested that you do this yourself. I had my doubts but I didn't want to derail this conversation with a rabbit trail so I didn't focus on his supposed apostleship. In other words, I thought it unnecessary to pick apart in detail what you said and left that as a side note, so that we could concentrate on the subject at hand. I didn't want you to think I was nitpicking and I left to you (or me) to find out whether he was an apostle. This way you would find out for yourself without my seeming like I'm picking or you and derailing the topic.
But as for me, my doubts were proven true and I know he wasn't an original apostle but you obviously did by your statement above. (since then you changed it so you must have looked it up)
As far as Acts 2:43 - I stand corrected. Yes there is a verse 43 but it didn't show up when I did the search last night. (perhaps I keyed it in wrong cuz I was tired) I think I may have keyed in Acts 2:14-41 and went by that so that is my mistake.
Anyway, that still doesn't present a problem. vs 43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Just because it says the apostles did signs does NOT negate the other verses that says OTHERS did signs. Verse 43 is simply a statement of fact - that the apostles did signs. It is a true statement - but that has no bearing on the other verses in which the others also did signs.
You would have to explain away those other verses but you cannot because it is written.
It's obvious by your comments that you are upset. I've tried to answer your questions to the best of my ability but you have not addressed any of mine. You have ignored the verses given to you about who performed signs. The bottom line: you were shown the truth in Scriptures and you are upset because you are proven wrong. You should be delighted in knowing the truth but you are not. So if you don't want to continue to discuss this with me, that's fine. I thought we could discuss this in a calm manner without tempers flaring but I see we cannot. This upsets me because we should be able to do this and no one should get upset if someone disagrees with the other or if the Bible verses proves us wrong. We should rejoice in being corrected!
Anyway, Phil, may the Lord richly bless you in all your endeavors.
Daniel,
You said: But neither can you say that just because their gifts weren't mentioned means that they actually have gifts because of reason so and so. That is also an argument from silence.
I think you missed the entire point. I did not argue from silence. I'll break it down briefly...
Some verses say other people (besides the original apostles) were doing signs (which I listed). Phil's objection was that there weren't any verses stating this and he listed them. He was going by those particular verses and ignoring the others. He, in fact, was argueing from silence not me.
BTW, I do NOT support the charismatic gifts AT ALL! I haven't changed on that. They pervert the gifts and make a mockery of them.
Daniel,
You said: sorry to disagree, but if the promise in Mk. 16:17-18 with regards to drinking poison and handling snakes are figurative for us now, then why aren't the others (ie tongues, healings, excorcism) also figurative?
I told you why I think handling snakes are figurative in the original post and one of the reasons is Luke 10:19.
And who says that if one thing is literal, that ALL must be literal? That type of thinking is what got the charismatic ball rolling - and that's why we have actual snake handlers who drink poison. (and why they die) The Bible is full of figurative speech and hyperbole. And just because they might be present in the same paragraph does not mean it's the same type of speech and meaning throughout. This is why we are to study, and rightly divide because we're going to run into these things. To say everything within a particular paragraph is literal when another verse proves otherwise isn't good.
As far as naming two gifts (tongues and healings) - I named those two to make a connection between the spritual gifts mentioned elsewhere. We must give consideration to other verses and put them together to get a clearer understanding of the whole scope of the word. If you do not do this, then you are saying that the gifts of tongues and healing in Mark are different from the gifts of tongues and healing 1 Corin 12:4-30. So I was making that connection between the two.
I don't know what all the continualists believe. But according to what I've read, these signs won't stop until Jesus' return. I can't find any other verses stating the contrary. Now that doesn't make it so, if you know of any verses stating when they ceased, then please tell me. I'm truly interested.
Again, I am highly against the charismatic mockery for the record.
Blessings,
carol
Carol,
I'm not upset. I answered your questions in my second comment;
"It doesn't say signs and wonders were being done by all those who believed and were baptized; it says "many wonders and signs were being done through the Apostles". Those were the 11 folks. Certainly there are texts which clearly state that signs and wonders followed Stephen Philip and Barnabas and this validates what Jesus said in the Mark text".
Thanks for the discussion.
In answer to your question.
I do not look to any man of God- no matter how big of a giant they may be.
Charles Spurgeon was a wonderful man of God, and so was Martin Luther. But no matter how great they are, you would agree that they were wrong in many things they taught and believed.
My example is Jesus and the apostles. The Word so to speak. The signs are given to confirm the Gospel. Just because Charles Spurgeon did not believe in the Holy Spirit baptism and the signs and gifts of the Spirit that are given to glorify Jesus, it doesn't make the truth void.
Signs and the gifts of the Spirit point to Jesus. He is the central message.
Honor the Word. Stop looking to men. Everything will pass away, but the Word of God will stand forever.
Sidharth
Dear Carol,
I personally do not believe the signs are same as the gifts of the Spirit.
The speaking in tongues mentioned in Acts 2, Acts 10, and Acts 19, are quite different from the charisma of tongues. If you will read the part in my article on the Holy Spirit baptism that I sent you, you will realize that tongues as a sign followed all those who were filled with the Holy Spirit.
When I was baptized in the Spirit, I spoke in an unknown language. But after the first experience, I could no longer speak in tongues. However, a year later or so I received the Gift of tongues. And I can speak in tongues whenever I want to. Compare 1 Cor 14 and the instances where people were filled in the Spirit. You will see why and how they are different.
The healing mentioned in Mark 16:18 isn't the same as the gifts of healing. There is healing that can be received by prayer of faith. I have seen many people healed by laying on of hands. At the same time I do not have the gifts of healing, that is something supernatural and of a different plane.
Sidhu
Sidharth,
I am not looking to men, but asking you *why* these men who believe do not have signs following them when you interpret Scriptures saying that ALL who believe shall have these signs follow them.
I hope you can shed some light on this.
Thank you, and Shalom!
A person who doesn't believe in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, can't receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. You receive what you believe for.
I believed God would fill me with His Spirit, and He told me that if I ask Him for the Holy Spirit, He wouldn't give me a snake or a scorpion because He was good. And I trust Him.
Every promise in the Word has to be believed and appropriated. A person who doesn't believe in the Spirit baptism, can't experience it. A person who doesn't believe in healing, can't experience that either.
Sidharth
Carol:
Mk. 16 must be interepreted in its context. Just because there is figurative language in Scripture does not mean that any particular passage is figurative, and worse still is the idea that a passage can be both partly literal and partly figurative at the same time. After all, we do believe in something called 'grammatico-historical exegesis', which is basically a technical term meaning interpreting the text based on its grammer and the biblical historical background it is in.
As such, an interpretation of Mk. 16:17-18 which makes the part about exorcism, drinking poisons etc figurative and others like healing, tongue-speaking etc literal does not flow with the text and context of the passage. It is not the plain meaning of the text, which does not separate those two in such categories. Either all of these promises of miracles are literal, or all are figurative. Using other verses ie 1 Cor. 12-14 to interpret Mk. 16 is wrong according to the rules of interpreting Scripture.
And no, I am not stating there are two or more types of certain gifts cf Sidharth. That is something simply not found within the pages of Scripture, and is basically reading their own experiences back into Scripture. So the gift of healing in Mk. 16:18 and 1 Cor. 12-14 are the same. However, that does not mean that the passages are talking about these gifts in the same way. As I will blog about when I get to the Gift of healing, Mk. 16:18 is refering to the operation of the gifts by those in the apostolic era, whereas 1 Cor. 12:14 is more universal in scope. Just because the gift of ie healing is mentioned in 1 Cor. 12 does not mean that its scope is subjected to the same audience as that of Mk. 16:18.
Sidharth:
Since you say that you are bound by the Word of God, then why aren't you proving your theory of multiple types of healings/tongues etc according to Scripture? Which verse in Scripture teaches that? Also, which verse in the Bible states that a person who doesn't believe in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit cannot experience it? Did Cornelius in Acts 10believe in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit? I doubt he even knew who or what the Holy Spirit is before that experience.
I suppose that either comments were closed or you disagreed with my comments sent yesterday on drinking of poison and handling of snakes and would not post them.
Ticker,
I didn't receive anything from you. If I had, I would have posted it. Perhaps you didn't use the word verification?
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